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Thread: Article you should all read about engaging your fellow man.

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Simonson View Post
    I can't imagine living in a time where shooting someone for trespassing would enter my mind.
    That time is now, for us. Our property is clearly posted with the below signage. Anyone proceeding past that sign and entering our property without an invitation, contract or warrant have made their intentions clear and can expect to be shot on sight.
    No Trespass.jpg
    I too have a deep abiding respect for all life and the rights of others. Those rights and the right to suck air ceases the instant my rights are being violated. In my state lethal force is authorized in defense of self, others, property, to stop a felony from being committed and to stop a fleeing felon. We live out in the sticks. If the police were called it would be an hour before they got here if they left immediately and could find the place. No one would hear our screams. Our property has perimeter alarms, motion sensors and video surveillance, with the video stored on an off sight server. Our home has been hardened to resist small arms fire. Lines of fire and ranges have been established. Trespassers should think in terms of "Deliverance" when entering our property. Post SHTF the same rules apply except that our perimeter will be two miles from our house at a choke point in the road and enforced by those that live up on our hill.

    That said the only time anyone has ever trespassed is two groups of religious fanatics from the city, one group Mormon the other Jehovah Witnesses. Both times they were greeted at gun point and surround by three 125 pound aggressive breed dogs. Both times they called the police after they were allowed to leave. Both times the police would not enter my property and called me to come to meet them on the road which I did. Both times after the trespassers told their story the police informed them I would have been well within my rights if I had shot them dead, that they had committed a crime. By their actions confirmed that their intent had been to do me and mine harm. Each time the LEO asked if I wanted to press charges. The Mormons shut their pie holes and became appropriately apologetic. I gave them a pass. The Jehovah Witness was a real bitch she ended up in jail, CPS took custody of her kids.

    Post SHTF the same rules will apply. Respect my right to life and my property and I will respect yours. If not I am prepared to defend what is mine. One of the reasons that we bought this place is because it's location. It is surrounded by abundant natural resources and it's defensible. A point that I think many who plan on bugging out to some remote wilderness location that they have painstakingly selected have failed to take into consideration. Is that their precious BOL location is already being used by those that live out here. That it is our larder, our grocery store and medicine cabinet. So while they may see themselves as homesteading survivalists they will be perceived and dealt with as marauding raiders. We are not going to appreciate anyone invading our territory and attempting to deprive us of our resources and sustenance for my family. Once again the "Deliverance" analogy applies. We know them thar hills like the back of our hand and will do what is needed to defend what is ours.
    Last edited by LongRider; 04-30-2012 at 08:50 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    That time is now, for us. Our property is clearly posted with the below signage. Anyone proceeding past that sign and entering our property without an invitation, contract or warrant have made their intentions clear and can expect to be shot on sight.
    No Trespass.jpg
    I too have a deep abiding respect for all life and the rights of others. Those rights and the right to suck air ceases the instant my rights are being violated. In my state lethal force is authorized in defense of self, others, property, to stop a felony from being committed and to stop a fleeing felon. We live out in the sticks. If the police were called it would be an hour before they got here if they left immediately and could find the place. No one would hear our screams. Our property has perimeter alarms, motion sensors and video surveillance, with the video stored on an off sight server. Our home has been hardened to resist small arms fire. Lines of fire and ranges have been established. Trespassers should think in terms of "Deliverance" when entering our property. Post SHTF the same rules apply except that our perimeter will be two miles from our house at a choke point in the road and enforced by those that live up on our hill.

    That said the only time anyone has ever trespassed is two groups of religious fanatics from the city, one group Mormon the other Jehovah Witnesses. Both times they were greeted at gun point and surround by three 125 pound aggressive breed dogs. Both times they called the police after they were allowed to leave. Both times the police would not enter my property and called me to come to meet them on the road which I did. Both times after the trespassers told their story the police informed them I would have been well within my rights if I had shot them dead, that they had committed a crime. By their actions confirmed that their intent had been to do me and mine harm. Each time the LEO asked if I wanted to press charges. The Mormons shut their pie holes and became appropriately apologetic. I gave them a pass. The Jehovah Witness was a real bitch she ended up in jail, CPS took custody of her kids.

    Post SHTF the same rules will apply. Respect my right to life and my property and I will respect yours. If not I am prepared to defend what is mine. One of the reasons that we bought this place is because it's location. It is surrounded by abundant natural resources and it's defensible. A point that I think many who plan on bugging out to some remote wilderness location that they have painstakingly selected have failed to take into consideration. Is that their precious BOL location is already being used by those that live out here. That it is our larder, our grocery store and medicine cabinet. So while they may see themselves as homesteading survivalists they will be perceived and dealt with as marauding raiders. We are not going to appreciate anyone invading our territory and attempting to deprive us of our resources and sustenance for my family. Once again the "Deliverance" analogy applies. We know them thar hills like the back of our hand and will do what is needed to defend what is ours.
    Sounds like your telling our story and or my story...AGAIN. Same thing happens here. My sign has a simlar wordage!
    We have more dogs and there are a few more of us with guns, but you got the RIGHT idea! LongRider are you my twin....LOL WELL DONE!
    Also Mas A is an awesome guy and great instructor!
    Last edited by theboonedockssaint; 05-01-2012 at 07:19 AM.
    And shepherds we shall be for Thee my Lord for Thee, Power hath descended forth from Thine hand that our feet may swiftly carry-out Thy command, And we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be, For Thee my Lord for Thee. In Nomine Et Patri, Et Filii, Spiritus Sancti



  3. #13
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    I think anyone who's willing to shoot someone for no good reason needs their head checked, but I also think that in a SHTF situation there will be far less room for error. If there is a possibility for a peaceful resolution I'm all for it. The less fights I get into randomly means the more chance I have of staying alive, and the more ammunition I have for when there is no possible resolution.

    Longrider, although personally I disagree with your stance, if I came across such an explicit sign(even if my intentions were harmless), I'd keep walking, no point risking it haha.

    Cheers,
    Sean.
    Not all who wander are lost



    .308 Win, .357mag/.38spl, .12g, .22LR

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by theboonedockssaint View Post
    Sounds like your telling our story snip.......... LongRider are you my twin....LOL WELL DONE!
    A Brother from a different mother aye ?
    Quote Originally Posted by theboonedockssaint View Post
    AGAIN.
    There was another time?
    Quote Originally Posted by theboonedockssaint View Post
    Sounds like your telling our story and or my story...AGAIN. Same thing happens here. My sign has a simlar wordage!
    We have more dogs and there are a few more of us with guns, but you got the RIGHT idea!
    Also Mas A is an awesome guy and great instructor!
    Thanks, I got the text/concept from a log cabin site of all places.Than had an attorney friend do an edit for me. Our three dogs are enough to deal with, but we do have attack turkeys that I swear people are more intimidated by than the Akitas.

    We do have folks up here on the hill who will band together if SHTF and we need to establish a perimeter. In times of peace all the neighbors try to look out for each other. Strangers get stopped and questioned on the road. Politely, ya know stopped and asked if they need help. Usually lets us know if they belong up here. But it is hard to keep a look out for each others property, with min 20 acre lots most set back in the trees a ways, theres no way to see or hear what goes on, on anothers property.

    Yes Mas is awesome I think anyone who carries should take some courses from him if nothing else his legal responsibility courses. It's because of his class that I put a criminal lawyer on retainer in case I am ever involved in a shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Bowhunter View Post
    I think anyone who's willing to shoot someone for no good reason needs their head checked, but I also think that in a SHTF situation there will be far less room for error. If there is a possibility for a peaceful resolution I'm all for it. The less fights I get into randomly means the more chance I have of staying alive, and the more ammunition I have for when there is no possible resolution.
    Curious where is your line what is a good reason and what is no good reason in your mind. Not to sure about there being less room for error once SHTF as the consequences for an unjustified shooting are pretty sever now at least in the U.S. Actually inclined to think people will be more inclined to shoot post SHTF than now. Beyond that in fill agreement a peaceful resolution is most definitely the most desirable, mutually beneficial resolutions are ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Bowhunter View Post
    Longrider, although personally I disagree with your stance,
    Can you expound on what you mean by "stance" not at all sure what you disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Bowhunter View Post
    if I came across such an explicit sign(even if my intentions were harmless), I'd keep walking, no point risking it haha.
    Excellent we are in full agreement there too than. As that is exactly my intent, especially if your intentions are harmless. Now post SHTF you ideally you would never see the sign as you would be stopped about two miles from my property on the dirt road leading to my place by me or my neighbors at a choke point in the road that has cliffs several hundred feet high on one side and several hundred foot drop of on the other. With a long range shooter about hundred feet behind them / us in case anyone wants to be none compliant aka leave.

    Interested in your response as it may lead to an interesting discussion and insights.

  5. #15
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    Christchurch, the Shakin' City, New Zealand
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    Well, having someone merely on your property I don't think is a reason to shoot them.
    They may have stumbled on somewhere away from the sign, be completely lost, or just passing through. If I saw someone advancing toward my house, armed, I may see it differently, but I don't see shooting someone for being there valid, there are many reasons why they may be there completely by accident.
    Again, this is something you may need to reconsider in a long-term shtf event.
    If someone was in my backyard during a SHTF event, I may think differently, as it's a 1/4 Acre section, in a suburban area. Not a whole lot of 'stumbling' can be going on, I'd be thinking they were trying to take my shit. Still, I probably wouldn't shoot them(At first), but they'd definitely be looking down the fiery-death end of my shotgun.

    Also, getting a reputation as an indiscriminate killer may not be looked upon kindly by other groups. They may decide you and your group are a liabillity and that you must be taken out, with force.
    I'm not saying be a soft touch, but a personal mantra of mine is "Speak softly, and carry a big stick." I think people incapable of using words(first) to resolve problems are the ones going around using violence unjustly. Don't get me wrong, if someone ****s with me they're about to have a bad day, but I think it's far easier for both parties to keep it as peaceful as possible.
    Also another mantra of mine is "Don't ever be the first to start a fight, it can highly increase your chances of being beaten." Meaning: You never know how ****ing prepared/skilled the other guy is, sometimes not getting in a conflict is the safest option, unless you have no other choice.

    Ya kinda get where I'm coming from??


    Cheers,
    Sean.
    Not all who wander are lost



    .308 Win, .357mag/.38spl, .12g, .22LR

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Bowhunter View Post
    Well, having someone merely on your property I don't think is a reason to shoot them.
    I do take some issue with the statement "merely on your property" My property represents my entire life's work. Everything I own, everything I have worked to secure a safe, self sustaining sanctuary for me and my family. A haven from the madness of the world around us. I worked for it. I paid for it. I work to maintain and upgrade it. It is the one place on the entire planet that I have sanctuary, my sovereign territory free to do as I please. What gives anyone else the right to be here?

    Because we have a spectacular view do you think I should allow folks to hang out on my deck and have a picnic? Maybe I should let them use the bathroom too, fill up the septic tank I pay for too? How about offer them pristine pure mountain water from the well I pay for? Hell while they are here maybe they should be entitled to butcher a goat? Let them roast it in the fire pit I built? Should they be allowed to grab some veggies from the garden, pick some mushrooms or wild berries? Hell how about they have some of the jam my wife made with those berries? "merely on your property" minimizes the violation of someone invading my sanctuary and haven. When they invade my property uninvited they have backed me into a corner there is no where else for me to go. What do you think would happen if China landed on New Zealand beaches? Countries go to war and kill thousands when other countries are "merely" on another nations property, because their mere presence is a violation of that nations sovereign rights. Just as an intruders "mere" presence on my property is a violation of my sovereign individual human rights and dignity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Bowhunter View Post
    Ya kinda get where I'm coming from??
    OK I think I see, it is your perception based on your environment. My place it not like yours, nor typical. I am not an urban suburbanite. Maybe I should have been clearer. I too would not indiscriminately do harm to another human being. The only reason I would use lethal force is in defense of of innocents, to protect and defend my property and of course my life.

    As you may recall the only trespassers. People who had to pass and see the posted warnings had expressly confirmed that their intent was to harass, maim, mutilate, rape or murder us were NOT shot on sight. They were simply made to lay in the dirt in their cheesy Walmart dresses and JC Penny polyester suits. Lets be perfectly honest here, we all know that they thought they were above the law and had every intention of violating the sanctity of my home and peaceful existence to shove their religious beliefs up my rear. They were not shot even though I would have been well within my rights to do so. They were simply embarrassed and put in their place.

    They did not just happen upon my place. No one can just happen onto our place.

    We bought this place because of its location. It sits on the military crest of a 900 foot hill surrounded by nearly a million acres of pristine wilderness. One side of the property is bordered by an impassable 800 foot cliff, that gives us a spectacular view of the wet lands below along with a view of the canal and mountains. To get here you have to travel the only road to our place. In the opposite direction of the nearest town 20 miles away. Than over two and a half miles up a dirt road. Our property facing the road has a retaining pond along the road 20 feet wide and a good 10 feet deep. On the other side of the retaining pond is a fence with stone pillars and posted every eight feet. There is only dense forest and brush between the road and the clearing my house sets in. No one comes that way by accident. The only way practical way onto my property is the 150 yard driveway that is clearly posted at the entrance.

    Remember, anyone passing those signs without an invitation, contract or warrant by their actions state that their intent is to rob, maim, mutilate or murder us. We have perimeter alarms, video cameras, and motion sensors all along the border, on our property and along the driveway. No one enters the property without me knowing they are here and where they are. In most cases I can watch what they are doing. No one gets onto my property by accident.

    In A SHTF scenario the neighbors and I have agreed to man the perimeter that will be two miles down the road from our homes. We will set up a road block at a point where there are cliffs hundreds of feet high on one side and drop offs hundreds of feet down on the other and place a long range shooter a couple of hundred feet back in case anyone opts to not to comply with our demand that they leave. Anyone making it to my property will have to overcome our home security. I think I will post another thread about that.

    As you can see there is no design to start any conflict with anyone ever. I agree with you if you go looking for a fight sooner or later you will find someone to stomp you into the ground. Nor have I suggested or implied anyone should indiscriminately kill any one. Instead I have taken measures to help assure our safety, including being as far away as practical from masses of people that are likely to create conflict. I agree avoidance is the best policy but if anyone makes the choice to go to the effort to engage me, to violate the sanctity of my home threaten me or mine and what we have worked hard to obtain. I will defend us and have taken measures to assure that I can.
    Last edited by LongRider; 05-11-2012 at 08:12 PM.

  7. #17
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    Remember, anyone passing those signs without an invitation, contract or warrant by their actions state that their intent is to rob, maim, mutilate or murder us.
    There is an assumption here that the tresspasser can read/see, or not being chased by a lethal actual threat, as opposed to a written potential threat. I guess some judgement has to be applied to each situation.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    I guess some judgement has to be applied to each situation.
    Absolutely correct. The trespassers I have encountered serve as a prefect example. As much as I despise religious fanatics invading my home and would have been legally justified using lethal force on them. There is a price to pay even if you are not charged in criminal or civil court. One that I am not willing to pay unless some one is a genuine threat. That is not to say I do not get some degree of satisfaction from seeing maggots like that laying in the mud wetting their pants/panties wearing their Sunday best. My point has been that there are laws are in place in most states that acknowledge a person right to defend themselves and their property. Except those states that require you to retreat. After SHTF those standards would not be a bad thing to use as guidelines for your behavior even if rule of law is not in place. As Massad was saying by knowing and adhering to those standards, you will save yourself alot of grief once rule of law is restored, if it is restored.

    That said as far as your example. It is highly unlikely that anyone would run onto my property seeking sanctuary. If they did I am under no moral or legal obligation to provide it.
    As far as being able to read the signs. The courts would use the reasonable man standard. A reasonable man in America would assume that an American adult could read the signs and even if they could not their ignorance of the law is no defense for their criminal conduct, trespassing.
    Last edited by LongRider; 05-13-2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: correct spelling

  9. #19
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    Christchurch, the Shakin' City, New Zealand
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    Firstly, someone stumbling into your backyard/farm being compared to an invading army of Chinese Nationals is a bit skewed
    But I see your point, I was merely trying to make sure you weren't planning on shooting anyone and anything you'd seen walking on you property, particularly if they didn't walk past a sign.

    Mainly because you said your property backed onto a large National Park/Forest.
    Imagine being lost in there for weeks, finally stumbling out to an apparent safety, then getting shot.
    That'd suck!

    Cheers,
    Sean.
    Not all who wander are lost



    .308 Win, .357mag/.38spl, .12g, .22LR

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Bowhunter View Post
    Firstly, someone stumbling into your backyard/farm being compared to an invading army of Chinese Nationals is a bit skewed.
    Not really if you think about it. I did not use the term army. A real world example back in the early 80 there was a massive armada of starving desperate Cubans that landed on U.S. shores. They were immediately taken into custody and sent back to where they came from. Any that did not comply with the orders given to them were shot, any that were hostile were shot, a few ended up getting asylum. I think my analogy was valid. My perception is different than yours I was explaining mine. That whether it is an invading individual, group regardless of size the ethics are the same, the only difference is scale. To invade someones territory be it private property or a nations territory is a violation of an individuals or nations sovereignty. In both examples the use of force is acceptable often necessary option.

    We agree not every one trespassing needs to be shot, though I perceive invasion of my property as a far more egregious offense than you seem to. In part because I am so hard to get to. I know no one is likely to just stumble on to my place. This is the view from my back deck the National Park side. The pic does not really show how steep the drop off is but believe me it is nearly impossible to climb up..
    H104.jpg
    If someone came at me from the national park side they would get shot on sight. As they would have to scale an 800 foot bluff from the valley (protected wetlands) below. Everything you see is wilderness area including that entire mountain range and what is on the other side of it clear to the ocean. No one can get to us or see us from that side by accident. I can think of only one reason anyone would try. We can however drop down ie escape on this side if need be.
    H105.jpg
    This is the view from the top of our hill from the other side of our property across the dirt road. So even if you came from that side you would have to cross the only road to my place Even standing on the dirt road in front of my property, all that there is to see is dense forest. As I said there is a retaining pond along the road 20 feet wide and a good 10 feet deep. Than a fence with stone pillars. Again if someone decided to try and sneak onto my property that way instead of using the driveway they would be shot on sight. Who with good intention would cross a 20 foot pond and climb over a fence rather than use a driveway?

    The only practical / innocent way to my place is by coming up the dirt road. If SHTF they would be stopped and turned away two miles from my property. If by some remote chance they manage to get past the road blocks do you really think that they would have good intention towards my family
    Last edited by LongRider; 05-13-2012 at 04:54 AM.

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